Stumpside Chats #21
Brown Christian Europe or White Pagan Europe? [Sep 27, 2024]
This question has permeated every layer of religious discourse on iFunny and, probably, most of the internet RW for a few years now. I’m not sure what specifically started it, but I assume it was some internet Pagan who came up with this question as a sort of “gotcha” for RW Christians. The goal of the question is obviously to try and get Christians to answer “Brown Christian Europe” because Pagans say this would prove that they are not loyal to the White race or something.
Obviously, this is an inherently divisive question and it is pretty obviously not intended in good faith. It’s just part of the eternal snark battle to permeates every part of our cultural discourse. I rarely take part in these sorts of things because I think they’re retarded. We can duke it out over religious quarrels once we have stayed off Total Demographic Collapse and Total Latinx Replacement. You’re just retarded if you’re engaging in this sort of thing right now. If you want to have serious discussion on differing ontology or theology or eschatology or whatever then you can do that, but this question his literally never been brought up in a serious way, nor have any of its derivatives. It’s literally just meant to PWN The Xitians Epic Style, not as a serious theological critique.
Now I should also say that Pagans are not the only guilty party here. Christians do their fair share as well. In most cases, it’s the TradCaths who are to blame and also the TradCaths who receive the most backlash from Pagans. I guess Orthodox niggas are too rare to have any statistical impact on this sort of thing, and Protestants are usually to busy dogging on/getting dogged on by TradCaths to say anything about Pagans. Regardless, for whatever reason I usually see the Pagan side of things more than anything else, so that’s what most of my examples are going to be about even though I think both sides are equally retarded for engaging in this stupid flame war.
The most important thing to remember here is that, like I said above, we can’t really afford to burn bridges over completely inane and retarded flame wars like this. Pagans are usually the most ardent RWers (sometimes to the point if needing to be reigned in) so Christians would be wise to avoid ostracizing their most outspoken allies. On the other hand, Pagans make up a miniscule fraction of the overall population while Christians make up a majority. Pagans can’t ostracize Christians because they won’t have the numbers to do anything afterwards. Even if Pagan RWers some how got in to power on their own, good luck trying to stay in power with all the Evangelicals running around in America. You won’t last long when the entire Bible Belt raises an army to purge Washington of “Devil Worshippers” because someone found out you niggas sacrifice goats in the woods.
That’s my general objection to this sort of flame war. Again, serious theological discussion is fine but that’s clearly not what this is. Now, on to the particulars.
Brown Christian Europe or White Pagan Europe?
This one is sort of the ultimate gotcha that Pagans use. It’s Ol’ Reliable. The fallback option that never fails. To them, answering in the former shows that you are not loyal to the White Race and answering to the latter shows you are not loyal to Christianity. It’s a catch 22 for them because they win no matter what.
The underlying logic is that Christianity is a universal religion, whereas European Paganism is a racial religion. According to them, Christian cannot properly assert loyalty to their race because their religion is universal, meaning that “White Pagan Europe” would be wrong in the eyes of God. Conversely, Pagans can say either White Pagan Europe OR White Christian Europe, because their religion is ultimately racial in nature and is not beholden to universal standards.
There are a handful of arguments that Christians will try to employ against this, but most of them are really lackluster which is sort of surprising, since the most robust argument is glaringly obvious (we will discuss it later).
The most common is for Christians to just say “White Christian Europe” and this is probably the second best option. Most of the Pagans get mad that the Christian is refusing to play ball, but the Christian is doing the best possible thing in this scenario. Neither of these scenarios is likely to ever actually happen and so the question is functionally useless outside of creating divide. So you just shouldn’t interact with it.
Other times, Christians may say “White Pagan Europe” with the condition that they begin proselytizing immediately. This one really makes Pagans mad because it’s sort of a loop hole in their argument where you can express both a loyalty to God and a loyalty to your race. That being said, it is sub optimal in reality since you are still likely damning millions of White people to Hell, depending on the specifics.
The other arguments are to poorly constructed and/or too uncommon for me to bother mentioning here so I won’t bother.
The best argument, however, is to refute the meta-argument by pointing out that by saying “White Pagan Europe” you are likely damning millions of White people to Hell for no real reason, and the eternal damnation is infinitely worse than losing your homeland. Therefore, out of concern for your racial kin you have no other option but to avoid damning them all to Hell. Undoubtedly, Pagans will just say that just circles back to the issue of universal religions but that’s really just a non-sequitur to be honest. It’s not even a valid argument against universal religions, it’s just them not liking the idea for material reason.
The Purpose of a System is What it Does
According to the cybernetician, the purpose of a system is what it does. This is a basic dictum. It stands for bald fact, which makes a better starting point in seeking understanding than the familiar attributions of good intention, prejudices about expectations, moral judgment, or sheer ignorance of circumstances.1
This one was popularized by some dude on Twitter who was arguing, if I recall correctly, that the purpose of America is to import brown people or something. It wasn’t related to the Pagan v. Christian beef, but it didn’t take long for Pagans to start employing against Christians, especially Catholics, to say that Christianity is about White Replacement because Christian organizations donate money or otherwise facilitate the importation of “refugees.”
The issue here is that the original statement was not the one from Twitter, it was from Stafford Beer (see above quote) in the context of STEM, particularly in the field of robotics/cybernetics. I’m not going to discuss the merits of the argument within that context, because Writings of the Sincere is significantly more qualified than I am in that regard, but I will address the lay applications relevant to this issue.
I’m sure this argument is fine and dandy in it’s original context of robotics, but it really falls apart when you introduce it into an environment of living beings, especially humans. Functionalism like this doesn’t really work with humans. Humans form intent, and their intent is what determines their actions. Some Christian non-profit that imports brown people is not a robot. It’s an organization composed of people who think and form intent. The purpose of that organization is to import brown people, either as part of White Replacement or because they are stupid liberals who buy the refugee shtick. Either way, it does not reflect on the broader idea of Christianity. The purpose of Christianity is to bring souls to God in order to save them from Hell. That is the established reason as defined by the Bible. The authors of the Bible and God Himself intended for this. You can’t deny that unless you just didn’t read the Bible. You could claim that one of the purposes of the Catholic Church is to import brown people, because they do that in some capacity and have clearly intended to “help” these “refugees” (I imagine they really think they are refugees as well) but it is not their only purpose nor is it their primary purpose.
Hexenkartothek (Pagan sympathetic Atheist/Agnostic) has tried to rephrase the argument in light of Not_a_Historian’s (Christian) criticisms of ElectionMaps’ (Pagan sympathetic Atheist/Agnostic) application. Originally I was going to make this entire post about this, but I realized that there was no reason to since all Hex is actualy saying is “what a system does is what a system does” which is not exactly news here. Sure you can critique the Catholic Church for importing brown people, but that doesn’t really reflect on Christianity as a whole or really even the historical Catholic Church, since 1. neither of them intended to accomplish this, and 2. neither of them ever accomplished this.
The bigger issue here, in my opinion, is that TradCaths sometimes try to defend these things. Usually they want to have their cake and eat it too in these situations. Something like “the Pope didn’t actually say that, but even if he did we aren’t obligated to listen to exactly what the Pope says” but then they will defend what he actually said anyway. Inb4 some TradCath rees at me because the media misrepresents the Pope a lot, YES I KNOW SHUT UP!!!